Xtri Interview: Karen Smyers, Dede Griesbauer and Todd Kenyon By Betsy Delcour 3/13/2008
It was a special treat for us here in Rhode Island when Bostonians Karen Smyers and Dede Griesbauer came down for a visit and bike fitting with our very own Todd Kenyon of TTBikeFit.com. Xtri was on the scene to see how it went, and we recently followed up with all three for their points-of-view on the fitting, as well as to see what's next for Karen and Dede this season...
Check out our gallery of images from the day by clicking here!
Questions for Todd
1. Todd, tell us a bit about your background? How did you get involved in bike fitting? What type of software do you use?
That depends on how far you want to go back – for example I have a mechanical engineering degree obtained back in Boy George’s heyday. I also have a bunch of other degrees I’ve never used on a professional basis, but the common denominator was always that I liked technical, mechanical stuff. I started riding bikes semi-seriously in the late 80s. From day one, I liked taking them apart and trying to optimize their performance as much as I liked actually riding them. When my wife and I started doing triathlons in 1992, I quickly realized that there was something incompatible between a road bike and an aero position. I found myself sitting on the nose of the saddle during races and didn’t know why. So I set out to learn as much as I could, often by experimenting on Lis and myself. Once the web came to life (yes kids, in 1992 there was basically no internet!) it provided an avenue to study what others had done in regards to fitting, aero positioning, etc. For many years I helped my friends with their fits, but I never really felt I had a good way to look at aero positioning until I found motion analysis software. I started out using a package designed for high school science classes. It wasn’t great but it did plot angles. Then I found Sports Motion which I currently use. It was really designed for golf swing analysis and PT use, but it works great for bike fit. It allows you to analyze body angles while the rider is pedaling under load versus using a posed position.
2. You recently had the opportunity to fit the legendary Karen Smyers. What did you know about her position based on photos of her from races? She’s been fairly successful (ahem!) riding that way – why change things now?
It was really an honor for me to work with Karen. I will be the first to say that you have to be very careful about messing with success, and Karen has had plenty as everyone knows. I always thought though that she could be even faster on the bike if she improved her position from an aerodynamic standpoint. She has historically used a more slack seat angle position with very little drop from saddle to elbow pads. This put her torso fairly upright, exposing her front to the wind. As she told me, she noticed during some of her epic battles in Kona that Paula would ride away from her in the wind whereas she could otherwise stay with her. This is a clear indication that Karen was at an aero disadvantage, whereas Paula had a great setup on that custom Felt of hers.
Now, aerodynamics isn’t the only consideration, especially in long-course. The rider has to be able to generate power efficiently and be comfortable. Karen has tended to sit upright because her limb dimensions result in her having impingement problems between her thigh and torso. Besides being uncomfortable, when the hip angle gets too acute the rider loses power. So Karen has historically kept her hip angle open by raising her torso. In my opinion what she really needs to do is move forward over the bottom bracket, probably more so than most riders for a given torso angle. There is a general misperception out there that being low in front requires extreme flexibility and core strength, and is guaranteed to be uncomfortable. It just isn’t true. A low setup done improperly will be miserable, but so will a bad upright position. Done right, I find a flat aero position very achievable and comfortable for most riders. The secret is maintaining a sufficient hip angle while using the right amount of reach and drop.
There is still a bit of a throwback mentality out there that being too far forward (i.e., using a steep seat angle) is somehow bad. It comes from road positioning, not to mention the UCI’s ridiculous, antiquated, and random rules. Most current TT frame designs are designed for a forward position with slack head angles and long front centers. I can show you any number of Professional road racers who sit at 80 degrees or steeper in time trials even though they ride most of the time at 73 degrees on their road bikes. David Zabriske practically sits on top of the bottom bracket at about 85 degrees. Of course, because of the UCI’s rule that the saddle nose must be 5cm behind the bottom bracket these riders are forced to sit on the last few centimeters of their already sawed-off saddle noses. They should send the bills for future fertility treatments to the UCI. The reason to get forward is to open the hips so that power generation isn’t reduced when using a low flat torso position. It’s the reason I was always riding on the nose of my road bike saddle in the early days, and it’s the reason guys like Zabriske are willing to endure sitting on the nose. Thankfully, triathletes aren’t subject to the same restrictions.
3. What did you do to tweak her position? How should these changes affect her cycling and running performance?
Again, with her history of riding a certain way, we didn’t want to do anything radical. I basically mover the saddle forward and up some, and dropped the front end a bit. Besides opening her hip angle and flattening her torso some, we also achieved a better arm/torso angle which should reduce shoulder tension and allow for skeletal versus muscular support. So hopefully we are looking at improved comfort, the same or maybe slightly better power, and improved aerodynamics. It was not a major shift, but a step in the right direction. As far as running performance, there may not be much effect. That said, I know from personal experience that a too-acute hip angle can kill your run because of lower back tension, fatigue, and wasted energy.
4. You also checked out Dede’s position on the bike. Can you tell us about that?
Dede already has a decent position, especially for long course. She is set up with a steep seat angle and a modest amount of front end drop. We discussed that because her drop ratio is fairly modest relative to her seat angle, she has the ability from a hip angle perspective to go lower in front. We removed a pad spacer which dropped her slightly, but much improved her wrist comfort on the aerobars. We also adjusted her saddle tilt which resulted in a major improvement in comfort. Over time she may experiment with some additional front end drop. I provided a summary video which compared her position to a rider that I think has an optimal position (my wife!).
5. One interesting component of your fit technique is that you can compare and overlay an image of one rider to another image; I noticed you had a collection of images of pros on their bikes from Kona last year. How do you use these images for comparison? In your opinion, which pros have the most effective positions on the bike?
Yes that is a great feature of the software. I have spent countless hours analyzing photos and videos of top triathlon and cycling pros. Once thing you notice is that the positions of the top time trialists are not materially different from those of the best triathlon cyclists. So I have been able to look at a variety of angles and benchmarks on these riders, and you find many common themes.
The best positions in Kona last year had the fastest bike splits. Sindballe and Lieto have great positions. Torbjorn’s position however is at the extreme of the ranges I see – he uses a large front end drop, and although he is sitting steeply, it’s not as steep as I might expect based on his extreme drop ratio. Hence his hip angle is more acute than most riders could stand. Stadler also has an excellent setup.
Among the women, Wellington’s position is very good although I would tweak a few things. Michellie has really improved her position – I wouldn’t change a thing on her now but it used to pain me to look at her setup. Beyond that, I find that the men in general have more aggressive and overall better positions than the women. I don’t know why this is, but in my opinion there were some very marginal setups out there in the pro women’s field. I give them a lot of credit for being able to ride and run at the level they did.
Questions for Karen
1. Karen, you’ve had a more upright position on the bike. How did you arrive at that type of fit on the bike?
I have been fitted by different people over the years (always on my trusty Trek bikes which I have been riding for 17 years!) and did have the opportunity to go into the wind tunnel at MIT a couple of years ago to try to improve my aerodynamics. As Trek has come out with more triathlon-specific bikes like the TTX and Equinox, it has been easier for me to get comfortable at the 76-degree angle and to feel dialed in on my aerobars. I have tried moving to a steeper angle in the past and for some reason I have always gradually moved it back—I think I feel I get more power especially when climbing, from the 76-degree angle I had settled into—but, it is hard to “feel” improvements in aerodynamics so maybe I didn’t give the steeper set-up enough of a chance. I did have the stem height higher than I do in season when I arrived for the fit with Todd because of a back injury that I have been trying not to aggravate, so I looked a little more upright than I do in season. I admit that I don’t like to change things much—I don’t relish the “experimental” phase when you are trying something new. I like to just get on with the training and racing! But now is a good time to try this because I can monitor my power on the Computrainer during my indoor sessions and measure whether I can maintain the watts in this new position. It has opened my hip angle some--which should actually help my power. I am really curious to try it out.
2. Considering your extremely successful career, are you a little skeptical of changing things up now with your bike position?
I think that may be one of my weaknesses is that I tend to NOT be a perfectionist. I have this idea that I can make up for little things I neglect by working a little harder on the race course. But I am not in a position to be able to concede anything to my fellow competitors any more—if anything I need an advantage! So I guess I am more willing to explore options—who says you can’t teach an old dog new tricks? Todd was very respectful of my past success and didn’t want to push me into anything—but after going through the process, I really wanted to try it out.
3. You have a background in computers, and you seemed to have a pretty good technical knowledge regarding angles, terminology etc. that goes into fit analysis. What did you think of Todd’s methodology?
Everything he did made perfect sense to me and it was especially cool to be able to analyze the angles right there on the computer. I enjoyed comparing my set-up to the others, too. It was eye-opening to see that my drop was significantly less than nearly everyone else’s in Hawaii. I knew I had a rounded back position due to my particular flexibility issues, but I didn’t realize that I was also much more upright.
4. What’s your next race? Do you have any hopes for a different feel on the bike, and then out on the run? (In other words, have you ever felt any discomfort from your current position that might now be improved?)
My next race is an Irongirl Triathlon in Las Vegas in April. In an Olympic distance race, I have never really felt uncomfortable (except when I am undertrained and try to wing it!), but in the longer races I have trouble holding my aero position toward the end of the ride. My back and neck are always stiff and achy—but I figured that was the price of Ironman racing! If some of that can be alleviated while also improving aerodynamics AND while not losing power, then it is a win-win! Perhaps I will see some improved speed at all distances due to the improved aerodynamics. I will let you know how it goes!
Questions for Dede
1. Dede, there wasn’t a whole lot Todd could do to your position since it was already pretty good! Did you learn anything anyway by coming out for the fitting?
Well sure! I learned that I have a pretty good fit!! Seriously though, it was fascinating to get to watch Karen – to check out Todd’s software and hear his thought process step by step. I learned a lot!! Todd also gave me some ideas going forward – potentially moving my front end a bit lower. We moved it a bit, and I can continue to tweak it going forward.
2. Todd compared your form in Kona to pictures of some of your other competitors...but there was something he didn’t realize that was causing you to ride a little differently than usual. Can you tell us what was going on that day?
Oh gosh….I tried to keep this on the QT – I guess I just didn’t want to talk about in hopes that if I didn’t acknowledge it, it would just go away! About 3 days before leaving for Kona, I was heading down stairs to walk Riley (our dog). I fell down the stairs and whacked the heck out of my forearm on the stair. More level headed people than me (Karen, my husband and my parents) urged me to get it checked out. Begrudgingly, I did, convinced it was a waste of time. Turns out, I had a small fracture. It wasn’t that serious – didn’t even require splinting. Just a bummer that it was exactly where my forearm hit the pad on my aerobar. I had to alter my arm position just a bit as a result.
The fact that he was able to pick that out was unbelievable!! I didn’t realize that grabbing my bar differently would change so much of my body position on the bike that day!
3. We all know you’re a very strong swimmer! What kind of strength do you have on the bike – do you prefer climbing, or long straight-aways down in the aero position? How do you train to address any of your weak spots on the bike?
I guess my biking is up for debate – Karen tries to tell me I am not bad on hills, but I am always more confident on the flatter or rolling courses. Just riding with Karen is great training to address my weaknesses. She doesn’t have much vulnerability on the bike, so just trying to keep up with her and other fellow Team Psychos on group rides has had great impact. I’ve also been working with a strength coach, Eric Cressey, for about a year now and that’s had great benefit on the bike.
4. What’s your next race? Do you think you’ll race any differently this season, knowing that you don’t have to re-qualify for Kona?
We’re actually still debating that some, to be honest!! I will definitely race an Ironman before Kona – most likely Ironman Brazil. I don’t think I’ll race any differently. Every race is a chance gain experience to make you better for the next.
For more info on Todd's bike fitting, please visit TTBikeFit.com. Check out the YouTube video at www.youtube.com.
